I guess by now anyone who has been reading this blog will figure that I am completely unsatisfied with anything and everything that goes on in Danish volleyball. The only things I have written have been criticism and I apologize for that. However, one of the reasons for the blog is to discuss the things I have a problem with and the ways that those things could be better.
Since this weekend is our first (and very possibly our only) pokal match of the year, I would like to talk a bit about the new structure.
As everyone already knows, this year’s tournament has been changed to a lottery system where any team could face any other team in each round, regardless of seeding. In my mind, this is a mistake.
I know what you are thinking. Jordan, the only reason you have a problem with the new system is because your team has to play Aalborg in the first round. And yes, that is one of the reasons why I think the new system is dumb, but there are more.
I think that the random system is actually an okay idea. It works very well for example with football. Someone tell me if I’m wrong but I think it was last year that Horsens or some other first division team made it to the finals of one of the cup tournaments and that was all very exciting. But, that was football. It is a completely different sport with a completely different set of circumstances surrounding it.
The nature of football is that there are not that many goals. And as a result it is possible that a lesser team can pack themselves back on defense and hope to keep the other team from scoring. A tie is good enough for them in certain circumstances and even if they only give up one or two goals, the match is still going to be exciting. This is not the case in volleyball. Volleyball is a sport that requires two teams who can match each other evenly to be exciting. Of course with two uneven teams you might see some big hits and big blocks, which can be fun to look at. But, unless there is some drama at the end of a tight set then the match has not lived up to its full potential. When you put two teams who are not in the same class together on a volleyball court the entire level of the match falls.
This problem was still a part of the old cup tournament system. When the seeded teams would come in the matches were inevitably lop-sided. But once the quarterfinals came there was also guaranteed to be some good matches. With the new system there is a fairly good chance that we’ll see a first division team playing a top level elite team in the semi-finals. It is even possible that this could happen in the finals. This would not be good for the sport.
Another reason that the lottery system works for football or even for Champions League volleyball is because every team is playing on a relatively high level. Teams like AC Horsens or FC Randers, while not being able to play consistently well enough to be in the top of the elite division, are good enough to play with the top teams like FCK or Brøndby for one match here and there. This is not the case in volleyball here in Denmark. The last two years have seen one first division team qualify themselves for the elite. And generally, the drop off from the top four elite level teams to the rest of the elite division is fairly dramatic as well. That means that teams coming from the first division have a very, very small chance of winning a match against a top team in the elite division. Why make it possible that one of these teams could make it to the semi finals or finals simply by the luck of the draw?
Let’s look at the practical implications of the new system:
Either Marienlyst (the defending champion) or Aalborg HIK (Pokal Champion 5 out of the last 7 years) is going to be out of the tournament before the quarter finals.
Spentrup (fell out of elite division last year) and Hvidovre (Had to re-qualify to the elite last year) will be in the quarterfinals.
DHG (0-2 so far in the elite) does not have to play anyone this round so they are automatically into the quarterfinals.
Not all of the matches are finished yet but if we assume that Lyngby beats Midtfyns (!?) that gives us four teams who are either in the bottom of the elite division or in the first division playing in the quarterfinals. That also means there is a possibility that two of these teams will play each other in the quarterfinals leading them to a spot in the semis.
I just don’t see how this is an improvement over the last few years. The pokal has always been a good tournament and the finals have always been a great showcase for the sport. In fact, due to the pokalfestival, it seems like the pokal final has the largest number of kids who come to see it. With the growth of Kids volley I can only expect that each year that number will grow. Why make it possible that the final might be a terrible match to see?
I would love to hear what some other people think about this. Especially the players who are playing for the lower level clubs. Is the new system better? I don’t want to make it seem like I just don’t care at all about those teams but I think a team should have to earn their way up. To be honest, I always thought it was kind of cool for some of the lower teams to get their chance to play against the best that the elite level had to offer. Kind of like last year when our team got to play against the Italians in the CEV cup. There was no doubt which team was better that day but it was a great experience to play them anyways.
In the end I think the new system rewards the weaker teams at the expense of the strong and that isn’t the way it should be. Once again, I would love to hear any arguments in favor of the new system…
18 comments:
Interessant indlæg du har bragt op her!
Først vil jeg gøre opmærksom på, at jeg synes det er meget ærgerligt at 2 af favoritterne til at vinde pokalturneringen, Marienlyst og HIK, brager ind i hinanden i første runde. Det må uden tvivl være den mest spændende kamp der er i første runde, men chancen for at sådan noget sker skal efter min mening også være der. For mig er det hele essensen i en pokalturnering. At de lavere rangerende hold har chancen for at overraske, eller bare få en god oplevelse mod de højere rangerede hold, og at de ”gode” hold kan ramme sammen tidligt i turneringen.
For 7-8 år siden, da jeg spillede 1 division i henholdsvis ASV og Lyseng, syntes jeg også det var latterligt at et 1 div. hold med garanti skulle slå 3 elite hold for at komme i pokalfinalen, en stort set umulig opgave. Med ASV spillede vi os dog i semifinalen ved at slå HIK Aalborg ud... (hehe) men tabte så til Gentofte i semi. Inden den semifinale tror jeg, der var nogen i forbundet, der begyndte at svede lidt, for hvem ville komme og se et 1. Div. hold i en pokalfinale. Ville det ikke være dårlig reklame for niveauet i dansk volleyball hvis et 1. div. hold kunne komme i semifinalen…
Dog vil jeg igen sige, at jeg synes det er charmen ved en pokalturnering, at det er tilfældigt hvem der møder hvem og at der kun er en chance ellers er det ud! Man skal præstere i den ene kamp man nu spiller, for der er ikke en chance mere. Så kan man sige at skader, fravær, sygdom osv. kan have indflydelse på resultatet, men det er bare ærgerligt. Sådan SKAL det være i en pokalturnering, at der så tidligere år også kun har været 1 finale om DM er jo helt galt, men det er forbundet heldigvis gået væk fra og det er også en helt anden diskussion.
Problemet i dansk volleyball lige nu, er at der efter min mening er meget stor forskel på de 4-5 bedste hold i Danmark og resten. Derfor undrer det mig også, at forbundet pludselig i år beslutter at lave systemet om. For som Jordan rigtig skriver kan det resultere i, at kun et af de ”gode” hold ender i finalen, hvilket vil give en meget lidt spændende finale, med andre ord en dårlig reklame for dansk volleyball. Dette udfald kræver naturligvis en helt bestemt lodtrækning, men chancen er der og det er ideen bag en pokalturnering! Hvis man tager det helt ud i yderligheder, vil det jo egentlig betyde at Midtfyns volleyball vil kunne spille europacup næste år…… Midtfyn vs. Treviso…….hmmm (selv om de nok ville få lige så mange point som HIK eller Marienlyst imod dem.)
For kort at opsummere mener jeg, at den måde pokalturneringen er udformet på i år er den rigtige når det nu er en pokalturnering! Hvis det var på samme måde som de tidligere år, kunne vi jo bare starte med semifinalerne, da semifinalisterne stort set ville være givet. Hvis et 1 Div. hold så ender i finalen, bliver det som sagt nok en kedelig kamp med få tilskuere, samt en kamp der ikke burde vises i tv, men samtidig en stor anerkendelse til det 1. Div. hold der er nået så langt for de vil stadig skulle vinde 3 kampe imod formodede bedre modstandere.
Det var bare lige det jeg ville sige…. Og til Jordan held og lykke på søndag.
P.s karantænen er overstået.. ;-)
Hi Jordan,
To say something in favor of the new system, I will mention the chance of bringing some "new blood" to the finals. Try to imagine if Spentrup was to qualify for the final? I think the whole town would be there to back the team up. And I think that something like that could inspire the team to fight like never before. And that is exactly what I love about Cup matches. You have one match to decide who wins. There are no second chances.
Last year in Spentrup, we all - especially the six of us that had played or coached HIKs 2. and 1. team the year before, had that "Cup feeling" when we played HIk in the league. It was a match that nobody wanted to loose due to bragging rights. But we won, and I think that in special matches like that, underdogs can rise to the occasion and put up a good fight, worth the same to the audience as good clean play on high level.
So here is my equation:
Overdog Vs. Underdog + intense atmosphere with many spectators = good entertainment.
My thoughts,
Mikkel T. Andersen, HIK
PS: Jeg så lige Villas indlæg. (Og nu på dansk)
Det er jo heller ikke fordi HIK trækker fulde huse til en pokalfinale. Jeg tror folk i klubben efterhånden er så vant til at et af førsteholdene er i finalen, at de bare er blevet mætte. Det er næsten kun spillernes kæreste, mor og far der kommer. Hvis et hold sensationelt var i finalen, tror jeg det kunne give lidt mere WOW effekt fra holdets hjemegn. Danskere er jo nu-engang indrettet sådan, at vi næsten altid holder med Underdogs (Nok fordi vi som nation altid har været underdogs) og hvis underdogs'ne så oven i købet er lokale, er det jo helt vildt!!!
//Mikkel T. Andersen, HIK
just in response to Mikkel's equation:
I think that
Overdog Vs. Underdog + intense atmosphere with many spectators = a lot of disapointed people wondering why they are watching volleyball instead of football.
I think that there is a slight chance that an underdog team could potentially have a close game with a good team, but I that all the moons have to be aligned for that to happen. A close game in this type of situation is usually the result of the better team shitting the bed, which makes for poor entertainment anyways.
thats all i got
peace out
Respons til Mikkel....
Nu har der de gange jeg fx har spillet pokal´finale med HIK været omkring 1200 mennesker hver gang. Jeg har min store tvivl om ex Spentrup ville kunne trække 1200 mennesker til en pokalfinale... Derudover mener jeg, som jeg påpejede i mit tidligere indlæg at der er stor forskel på de 4-5 bedste hold i Danmark og resten, hvilket vil sige at det eksempel du giver:
"Overdog Vs. Underdog + intense atmosphere with many spectators = good entertainment."
Det kunne kun blive en tæt og spændende kamp hvis det "gode" hold spillede rigtig rigtig dårligt, og hvem gider se en kamp hvor det ene hold spiller rigtig rigtig dårligt. Det bliver det jo ikke tilskuere venligt af... Så giver Kinger fuldstændig ret!
Villa
Hey guys,
I think there are some valid arguments for the Pokal being done as it is...or it is exactly the same as the Danish Championship. However, I am not sure that Denmark volleyball is ready for this lottery quite yet. If all the teams were maybe a little more even such as you would see in bigger volleyball countries there would still be underdogs but maybe not to the same degree. I think it is good to maybe even out the field a bit and give some smaller teams a shot at getting to the big time, but it would be bad for the fans in my opinion. Considering that the fan base in Denmark is low already I don't think it would help to increase it by pinning a huge underdog against a top team and either have a bad but close game or a well played game and a shit kicking. If there were alot of fans paying attention to the Pokal as a whole, then it would be a better idea. If that were the case however, we would see 1200 people at the first round match on Sunday between HIK and Marienlyst...because the fans would show up to see a good match. Unfortunately, a good number of fans only show up at this point to volleyball games in Denmark if it is a final and not because it may be a good game.
2 cents given,
Chad
Why do we even have the Pokal If it is just an other opportunity to make the top teams play each other, and getting some more metal. If that is it, I for one think that we should drop it, and maybe make some extra games in the slutspil maybe even start them up before Christmas.
For me the only purpose of the pokal is to give the lesser team a change to play a big match regardless of how many spectators are coming, and if Danish volleyball does not have the level to allow 1div teams a change to go all the way it at least gives the lower end of the elite a change to get a BIG game
Skibe
Ps: Why does second place get medals in the pokal the hole idea is vind eller forsvind even in the final
I totally agree that an underdog vs favorite match can be exciting. As people in general I think we like to root for the underdog, and if they can somehow pull off a victory (or in some cases just keep the match close) then everyone usually feels satisfied. But, as some other people have already stated, we have to be honest with ourselves here and admit that none of the lower teams are going to deliver an upset. They simply cannot follow with the top teams. Can anyone remember a big upset in the pokal tournament in the last five years? I guess the thing that bothers me more than anything is that there is probably going to be a top team that gets lucky with their draw. We have already been unlucky to draw HIK in the first round. But there are other teams that could possibly draw low level teams all the way through to the final. This bothers me more than an underdog getting a shot at making the finals.
Villa, I think that 7 or 8 years ago the league was probably a lot more even. At least from what I have heard, besides Holte, there were several teams that could beat each other on any given day. In that scenario I would love to see an underdog make their way to a semi-final or final. Remember also that your team had to beat some good teams to get there. Whereas this year, if everything worked out a certain way, the lower teams might not have to play one higher ranked team before the finals. If that happens they will not be prepared to perform on the high level that is required to beat a top team.
With all that said, I can see the charm of a pokal tournament where anything can happen. It can be exciting, and maybe if we make it into the next round and get a nice draw then I'll reconsider the way I feel about it. But does anyone else feel like it could still be set up a little bit better? Maybe something like last year's number 1 and 2 are guaranteed to be in opposite sides of the bracket? Or perhaps if there is a team that drops out, like this year, then automatically the defending champion gets the bye into the next round? We could still have a lottery type system with a few ground rules that could ensure a more even distribution...
Lastly, I just think that winning the pokal is a fairly prestigious thing to do, only a few notches below winning the championships. I think it's dumb if that gets tainted by a team getting a lucky draw all the way through to the finals...
Skibe, you just posted while I was writing, don't you think that those lower teams still got a chance to play "big games" in the old system? It's just that they happened in the quarter finals and not the semi finals or possibly finals with 1200 people watching...
Also, if this sets off a string of upsets in the pokal tournament don't blame me...
This discussion is getting interesting now :)
I think that Chad makes a good point, that if people are just coming to the Cup final to watch a good game between two topteams, then why are people not there at other times when the teams meet.
But lets face it, vollyball is still such a small game in Denmark, that the people that actually go to watch the matches are people related to the players, or just members of the same club as the home-team. This is for normal league matches.
For the Cup final, or the league final, additional to the attendees mentioned above, the will also be volleyball players from the local area of where the match is played. So all in all, I don't think that the "names" of the teams in the final are all that important, regarding the numbers of attendees.
When looking at fair and not fair, I think that in both the old and the new system, it will always be the best team that wins the Cup. The team that wins all the matches must be the best team.
But all in all, there are a lot of good points for and against the new system, I think.
//Mikkel
I'm still for the Cup, I just don't think that it is its purpose to be a mirror image of the semi finals this or last years. And I think that there is a Big difference in playing a semi as opposed to a quarter. I know there was for me the first time
I do think this is a valid debate, and I think every system has to be evaluated from time to time, no matter the outcome, but the problem at the moment is that there is no comments from the lover divisions/teams
skibe
I suppose I represent one of the lower ranked teams in the elitedivision, and I do have a few points to make. Good debate, by the way.
The new system is kind of fun for a team like Hvidovre. We get a chance to go further but I think we need a lot of luck with the draw to go all the way to the final. We still have four of the top five teams left and they would be very unlucky to all face each other before the finals. I think there's about a 3 percent chance of this but I'm not too sure about the maths.
For the good of Danish volleyball I would not be in favor of our team reaching the final without having beaten an absolute top team. So I agree that there is a potential problem in the new system.
Howewer, I think there was another problem in the old system. Back then, the top 8 teams from grundspillet the previous year were automatically seeded not to face each other in the round of 16. But there was no seeding for the rest of the teams. For a team like Hvidovre, who used to finish 9 or 10, that meant we usually faced a really tough opponent in the round of 16, when we might have had a chance against the number 7 or 8 from the year before.
By the way, having beaten Holte (who finished 7th last year) I suppose we earned our place in the last 8 this year.
Oh yeah, I do have one more twist to the pokal debate: Why is there only 15 teams in the Lufthansa Cup this year?
The system has been changed in to something that favors smaller teams, and yet this is the lowest number of teams that ever participated (at least as far back as I can remember). All the big teams are there.
I don't know if the smaller teams even realized that there is a new system but apparently so far it's not attracting them.
Hey guys,
Just another thought on the 'lottery'. Is it really a lottery? I am no mathematician but it seems strange to me that if you look at both the women and mens draw for the first round the HIK vs. Marienlyst was the only game that saw two of the higher ranking teams play each other. I don't know what the odds of this happening are but to me it seems a little weird. Can you say conspiracy...
Food for thought,
Chad
I think there is clear and obvious proof of a conspiracy here. Where was the DVBF when JFK was shot?
Casper, I didn't know that there were only 15 teams entered this year. How much does it cost? If the new system brings more teams back into the tournament then I am all for it.
Aren't there other ways to make it more worthwhile for lower level teams to enter? I think it could be interesting to explore some of the possibilities with the DVBF cup. As far as I understand now, the DVBF cup is a tournament for the second teams from all of the clubs out there. I think it could be interesting if, for example, those teams that go out before the 1/8th final in the Lufthansa Cup had a second chance in the DVBF cup. They could be seeded directly in or something like that. I mean, for a team like Midtfyns whose first team has no realistic chance at winning the lufthansa cup there is no real draw for playing in it if they are just going to be finished after one round...
Hi guys.
I think the lottery has come because the tournament needs more of the lower ranked teams.
Playing the pokal is pretty expensive for a club, and you need some sort of motivation by playing it.
For example i know that every season on the lyngby mens team we have heated arguments about playing it or not, allways resulting in that half the team plays it while the other doesnt.
The difference i level is big, and going to Jylland to play a lower ranked 1 div team, and then later go to Ålborg and get smacked back into the stone age isnt much fun and a waste of time/money.
But i think its about money, and to give the lower level teams some way of arguing that a place in the final is possible.
Right now its still such a vague possibility that a low ranked team goes to the final without meeting a top4 team - but the possibility is there which i think is the whole idea in order to make it interesting.
I think the cup tournament is important, and if this step can get more teams in it - then im all for it.
A cup tournament "vind eller forsvind" has some interesting appeals in my mind, even if it sucks to blow out a lower ranked team and then getting killed by a high rank team.
*/William
This year there were only fifteen teams in the men's Lufthansa Cup, meaning not even enough for a full round of 16. That's why one team got a lucky draw directly to the quarterfinals, namely DHG.
I think lower ranked teams certainly look at the price of participating compared to the benefit. And if you have absolutely no chance of winning and only a slim chance of even facing an opponent you can beat, then 2,000 kroner may seem like a lot of money for a small club.
Although I think there's a difference in the entrance fee for an elitedivision team and a 1st division team.
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