Over the Christmas break there has been some discussion about the amount of games that we play in a season. What is the optimal number? How do we make all of the matches matter? How do we make sure that the best teams are developing? Essentially, how do we make sure that the league continues to develop, in relation to Denmark and in relation to a bigger European picture? I think one of the answers may be to create a Royal League type volleyball tournament.
Much has been written about the disconnect between the top and bottom of the elite division. Clearly there are not enough good teams here in Denmark. More specifically, there are NO teams that are ready to have success in a European tournament. Our Marienlyst team last year was summarily dismissed from the CEV cup with one set won out of three matches. And that team lost two sets in all of the after Christmas season. So, development towards a league that can prepare its best teams for success in Europe is absolutely necessary. It’s also not a stretch to say that the same goes for the leagues in Norway and Sweden.
What can teams do to be more prepared for the level of volleyball outside of their respective countries? Well…playing more volleyball against teams from outside their country is definitely a necessary part of the equation. And that is where a Royal League of volleyball could be extremely valuable.
Certainly, a Royal League like the one that football is currently playing is not feasible for any of the clubs playing volleyball anywhere in Scandinavia. The format that I imagine is much more possible in relation to the budget and time of the average Scandinavian club. First, the league would be restricted to Norway, Denmark and Sweden. It would be great to include teams from Finland as they have had some success internationally but traveling to Finland is quite a bit more involved than the other two countries.
Quite simply the League would consist of three separate tournaments that all could be played over a weekend. Each country would host one of the tournaments. Take the top two teams from each league and place one each into two separate pools. The exact specifications for which team would go where could be worked out pretty easily. But, I would think it would look something like: Pool A: (#1 from Denmark, #2 from Sweden and #1 from Norway). Pool B: (#1 from Sweden, #2 from Norway and #2 from Denmark). These two pools play during the same weekend in different countries, say Norway and Denmark. The best four teams get seeded into a four-team tournament at a later date in Sweden to determine the champions.
Overall, the whole thing would take two weekends to complete and each team would be get at least two strong matches. (If they advanced to the finals they would get at least four high quality matches). As far as I can tell, every team in Denmark could find room in their schedule for something like this. And not only would they get good competition out of it, they would have a chance to get used to traveling to other countries and playing under different circumstances. Whether or not something like this would be popular with fans is absolutely secondary. The way Danish volleyball is right now, there aren’t enough high level games, especially before Christmas, and a tournament like this would give access to a good training and development opportunity. With minimal investment everyone could benefit from a scenario like this.
Eventually, the idea would be to be able to add more teams. Whether it is the third place team from each league or two more from Finland, the more games the better. But at the moment, I see this as the most feasible model, something that would take little effort and give maximal benefits. Plus, it would be interesting to see which country is playing at the highest level right now…
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
26 comments:
I like it, i like it a lot! Great idea. I think that all countries involved would benefit.
Show me the money:)
En rigtig god ide som helt sikkert vil give de bedste hold i norden(-finland) nogle ekstra gode kampe.
Eneste spørgsmål er så bare om klubberne kan klare de økonomiske udgifter til rejser og overnatning etc..
Norge og Sverige er jo store lande (sammenlignet med Danmark) så der er stor forskel på den økonomiske belastning alt efter hvor i disse lande turneringerne bliver afholdt.
I 1995-6 (tror jeg) spillede vi, Holte IF, f.eks. mod det norske mesterhold Båtsfjord (50 km syd for nordkap....) sikkert ikke en billig tur for klubben !!!
/mvh
Bergholt
I understand that these trips wouldn't be for free. But at the same time (and especially compared to some other trips, south in Europe, etc...) it wouldn't cost an incredible amouont of money to make it happen. At most this format takes up two weekends. And one of the tournaments would take place in Denmark. That means possibly only one trip out of the country, I think it would be possible for most teams to make this work. Lots of teams already take training trips to other countries, Germany, Sweden, etc...
You've also got to hope (and I know this may be too much to hope for) that a club could make up some of the costs by hosting one of the tournaments and collecting some money from fans, food sale, etc... And it wouldn't be too hard to find a place for people to stay. Lots of teams sleep on site at the Middelfart tournament every year. If worse comes to worse, it isn't all that bad to sleep in a gym. Also, it would be possible to run a simultaneous tournament with women's teams which could spare some money as well.
Overall, I think the benefits would outweigh the costs and I definitely think that it would be possible.
Måske ville det være en idé at den klub der afholdte turneringen skulle betale for mad og overnatning til dem der kom langvejs fra. På den måde er udgifterne nogenlunde lige fordelt. Eftersom der ikke er andre hold fra samme land i puljen. Dvs. man betaler selv sine rejseudgifter, men kun det. Ved ikke om det kunne løbe rundt, men det er et forslag.
Would it be too far outta of the question to have a normal league involving say 3-4 teams from each of the countries, e.g. a scandanavian league. Having only 3 teams per country would inevitably make the level of games far higher. Also i would assume finding sponsorship and getting more publicity to volleyball would be much easier this way. Especially due to the inter country rivalry (not to sure if scandanavian countries have big sporting rivalries with eachother like i'm used to being from Australia)
Anyway it's just a thought, im sure they are many reasons logistically why this would be hard. but feel free to comment.
Nate
Nate, I think at this point the money just isn't there to run a league like that. You'd also have to ask yourself if it would actually be worth it. Getting down to the third and fourth place teams can start getting into less high intensity games. For example, this year Denmark would offer DHG as the fourth place team from last year... I know Norway doesn't go that deep either. Also, these third/fourth place teams probably have less money to work with in their budgets. Think about what it would be like for a team from Northern Sweden to come down and play one match against DHG. That's not worth it and it wouldn't really be in the spirit of the idea. The idea is to get some high level games that could be applied towards making Scandinavia competetive with the other countries in Europe. There is only use for the best teams.
Anyways, I agree that it would be great to run a league like that. But at the moment I don't think it is really feasible.
i like the three tournament idea...if your club can't organize enough money to go to two fricken tournaments then i'm sorry to say but your club is doomed. It really doesn't take much to travel to sweden or norway. maybe you have to do a little fundraising if your club is lacking sponsorship but i think that two weekends isn't too much to ask.
I think that if this isn't a feasible option due to lack of funds, then danish volleyball is fucked. If your top teams can't afford to travel for two weekends, your top teams will forever be destined to play the same teams over and over again within denmark.
Nu er det jo et extremt tilfælde med DHG, men man kan vel aldrig sikre sig at et hold der er tophold et år også er det næste sæson. Så hvordan skulle det udvikle dansk volleyball at bare to hold og ikke f.eks top 3/4 kunne deltage- hvis det nu var Marienlyst eller SK Århus med en del udlændinge er der vel ikke den store udvikling i det for dansk volley.
Maybe Århus is a little extreme with 6 foreigners, but Marienlyst having three is not hurting Danish volleyball in my opinion. I know for sure if they could have gotten Danish players with a high enough level to play the positions they needed, they would have done it...but being a small country there are not enough high level Danish players around to give every team good players at every position. The three foreigners in Marienlyst greatly increase the level of their team, and therefore their training, so of course the Danish players on their team benefit. Just like I am sure all of the players on our team would say they benefit from having Jeremy and Aaron on our team, because they can help to raise the level of training and push the Danish players to be better.
Yeah, I think the idea is kind of a ripple effect. If the top two teams can train well then they can then push other teams to get better, etc.. And we are talking about Danish volleyball in general not just Danish players. The goal is a strong league thereby creating a good environment for the development of Danish players. The amount of foreigners on SK's team is irrelevant here in my opinion.
But, like I said before, I totally agree that it would be great to have more teams in a league like this. And I think the goal would be to eventually include the top 3/4. It's just not feasible right now.
ja det er netop min pointe extreme tilfælde kan man altid finde og argumentationen for kun 2 hold bygger jo på et extremt tilfælde - DHG som dog over en måske 10 årig (måske mere måske mindre)periode har været et af de konstante tophold. Når man så samtidig ser toppen af ligaen i dag er der vel 4-5 hold der er ret jævne selvom Middelfart har vundet alle kampe i grundspillet var der dog en del 3-2 til Gentofte, HIK, Marienlyst ligesom der der blandt de nævnte hold også var et par 3-2 kampe. Nu har jeg selvfølelig ikke set de kampe og skal ikke udtale mig om niveauet af dem, men det tyder dog på et vis jævnbyrdighed.
Endvidere handler det jo heller ikke bare om midler til at deltage to weekender i en sådan turnering, du skal jo nærmeste kunne lønne et ½ eller helt hold på den ene eller anden måde ( kørselspenge, diæter eller andre skattefri gødtgørelser) men kan du skrabe penge ind til det kan du jo vinde DM, hvilket de seneste to mester hold har bevidst penge lig med du kan hente de bedste danske spillere supleret med udlændinge og vupti du har et DM. Det samme ses jo i år med Middelfart som ikke endnu har vundet DM og hvis de ikke gør det kan de så samle pengene igen til næste sæson og dermed få et lige så stærkt hold, dermed er man jo ikke sikker på at holde det niveau der måske skaffer en top to placering og holder de ikke niveauet er de ikke gode nok til denne nye turnering. Marienlyst kunne lige med skinnet på næsen holde top to i grundspillet efter en sæson hvor de tabte 4 sæt eller sådan noget så har de kvaliteten i år til at deltage i denne turnering? Se nu blev tingene jo virkelig sat på spidsen og måske lidt provokerende men det er jo en debat :-)
I'm not exactly sure I know what it is that you mean. I can say once again, that I do think it would be best if the top 3/4 teams could compete in this kind of tournament. It would be great. But right now, I don't really think that it would work because that would mean a whole lot more matches, a whole lot more traveling and a whole lot more money.
Second, there has to be a cutoff somewhere. Sure, the CEV could also decide that from now on the top 8 teams from every country could be in Champions League, but then the tournament wouldn't really be very special would it?
Third, I don't really know if you mean that having money is a bad thing or if you don't agree with international players being in Denmark. But, the idea that having money and foreigners makes for Championships is not exactly correct. Middelfart is a great example. They have had probably the biggest and most consistent budget in Danish volleyball over the last several years. They have had foreigners the last two years and they still have not been able to win a medal. DHG has brought in foreigners in the last few years and were unsuccessful. Marienlyst last year had only me as a foreign player so I wouldn't say that they "bought" themselves a championship. I don't know if Gentofte is paying some of their players or what, but they are clearly a DM candidate this year and they haven't been known as a team that uses their budget to attract players. Anyways, I don't know if your problem was with a team having money or a team getting players from outside the country but I think it is fairly evident this year that it takes a lot more to be one of the best teams than just money and access to internationals. Either way, I don't see why this should be a factor for making the tournament include more teams.
I'm also unsure what you mean by Marienlyst "kunne lige med skinnet på næsen holde top to i grundspillet". Losing one match and winning all the rest is usually pretty good... But, I imagine that you are saying that it is hard to separate out which of the top four or five teams should get the chance to participate in this kind of tournament when all of them seem so close to each other. To that, all I can say is that in the end there will be two teams in the finals and those two teams deserve to be recognized as the best two teams in Denmark. The semi-finals are best of three so there shouldn't be any room for a weaker team to beat a better team.
I understand that when I mentioned DHG it wasn't exactly a fair thing to say. But, certainly over the last ten years, if you looked at the top four teams in Denmark it would almost always be that third or fourth team that would have the biggest drop-off to the next year. It is very rare that the two teams who played in the final the previous year would come back in the following season and be much weaker. The chances are much better that the team that got fourth place would be markedly worse.
Nej det er ikke dårligt at have penge, men nærmest en forudsætning efterhånden få at vinde DM. Ja sidste år have Marienlyst kun dig som udlænding dog stærkt supleret med en række af de bedste danske spillere man havde "købt" i andre klubber - rigtig mange i DHG. Et holde der iøvrigt senest vandt DM i 2003 med mange af de spillere der vandt DM med Marienlyst. Så det jeg mener er bare at har du penge nok kan du tisyneladende samle en god del af de bedste danske spillere og suplerer med 1 måske 2 udlændinge og så har du et mester hold.
Jeg tror heller ikke helt på den med at set over de 10 sidste sæsoner er de hold der er blevet nr 3, 4, 5.... blevet dårligere året efter - tager man din egen klub (iøvrigt en klub der ikke selv kunne spille sig i eliten, men overtog licensen fra et andet Odense hold) blev de i de første sæsoner i eliten ikke særlig godt placeret - det blev holdet ikke svækket af man hentede flere spillere og i takte med det blev resultaterne bedre og med et DM til sidst. Gentofte er et andet eksempel på at det at blive nr 5 ikke er det sammen som at man er svækket til sæsonen efter tværtimod de da i pokalfinalen i år (dog med lidt spiller tilgang)
Men det jeg egentlig bare gerne ville sige var at hvis det generelle niveau i dansk volley skal hæves tror jeg det bedste ville være top 4 i sådan en ny træningsturnering og så er det iøvrigt altid relevant at diskuterer antallet af udlændinge der kan være på et hold. Jeg er nemlig ikke imod udlændinge i dansk volley men 6 på et hold (og så endda i startopstillingen) er simpelhen for meget!! I fodbold må de have 3 på banen såvidt jeg ved og de er 11 på banen så måske et maks på 2 i volley ville være et godt bud. Hvis altså vi skal udvikle på dansk volley/danske spillere...
are you living in this world or what?
where do you find the money? hosting a tournament is the solution? how much money do you think you can make? thousands of kroner?
My suggestions:
- built a volleyball school, involving hundreds of kids, involving the school to make students play volleyball;
- have youth championships;
- give the national coach a huge selection of good players to built up the national team every year, you'll see how all the ones who want the national jersey have to fight all year long to achieve this call
This is the base from where you have to start to have Danish teams on a good European level.
SO, once you have some Danish team on an European level, why do you still need a Royal League?
Okay. We'll build the volleyball school. That's a much less expensive solution.
And we'll force hundreds of kids to play volley. You can be the headmaster and walk around whipping the children while they work to improve their technique. It'll be kind of a step back for human rights in Denmark but good for the sport overall...
Hej....
Jeg må sige det virker lidt underligt at brokke sig over nogle klubber laver et stort stykke arbejde med at skaffe penge til deres klub og dermed tilbyde deres hold og spillere de bedste mulige forhold. Man må da bare tage hatten af for folk som Jens Larsen og Jacob Petersen for det kæmpe arbejde de har gjort for deres to klubber og sige godt gået og så ellers selv få fingeren ud og få gjort noget ved det i ens egen klub så den kan komme op i niveau, så man kan tage kampen op.
Men var det oprindelige spørgsmål ikke om Royal league ? Der mener jeg nok det bude være top 4, men det er måske mere farvet af, at mit eget hold nærmere er et top 4 hold end det er top 2 for øjeblikket.....
Men ellers er det da en udemærket ide med de kids/ungdomsspillere, men hvad skal vi så gøre de næste 10-15 år før de er klar - sætte elitedivisionen/landshold på stand by ? Nej vel
you don't have to force kids to play volley...
If there is not a volleyball tradition in this country, do you think a Royal League is the magic solution to make Danish champions?
Why don't you write to DVBF? May be you can help them to solve all the budget's problems it seems you have the soltion for everything
Well, someone wrote that waiting 10-15 years to have a new generation of young players is not a good idea, ok.
So, do you want to improve the Danish League's level or the volleyball level of Danish players?
To reach the first goal...just buy good players and here it is your High Level Elitedivision, but the National Team will always sucks.
To reach the second, I don't see any other possible ideas.
By the way, you don't have to take kids in the streets and force them to play volley, but at least you should tell them that volley can be a good sport after handball, soccer, basketball and so on...
I could be wrong but I don't think anyone has said that a Royal League would be the "magic solution" to all of denmarks problems. I think people are saying that it would be a step in the right direction though. I also don't think that anyone is downplaying the importance of developing the youth programs in the country.
I'm just confused about what exactly you are arguing. Negate the whole monetary issue for a second... can you admit that a Royal League would provide an opportunity for competition at a higher level??
-C. Norris
Woah, woah. Let's all take a step back here and relax. I'm sorry if what I have written about has somehow offended you.
I've never claimed that a Royal League style tournament would be the absolute answer for Danish volleyball. I do think it could help the development of the league. I do think it is feasible. And, most importantly, I think it would be fun to see. But I don't claim that it would magically make everything perfect.
I can also happily agree that a school for young players would be very beneficial to the sport as well. Great idea. But that would also have to be financed in some way. And since I don't have any idea where that money would come from, I can't really comment more on it.
It should also be noted that there are lots and lots of people doing a lot of work with KIDS volley right now. And those kids are going to provide a much bigger pool of talent than is currently available when they get older. But, how to keep them developing once they get to the elite level? If the elite division isn't attractive for those young kids then all of the effort to bring them up on volleyball is essentially lost. Strong kids work + strong elite division = a better national team. I think a Royal League type setup could be a part of that formula.
Also, I wouldn't mess with Chuck Norris. I've heard some pretty crazy (but completely true) things about him lately.
I, for one, think that it's an interesting idea. The economical implications for the clubs involved can be difficult to predict but that's probably the one major concern.
However, I think the initiative for such a tournament would have to be on the part of the clubs, simply because they have the best chance to determine the cost and benefit of a Royal League.
Kasper, Hvidovre
Jeg synes ideen om Royal League er god og har allerede et par ideer til konceptet.
For det første skal den ikke hedde Royal leage (det vil Don Ø og de andre fodboldfolk sikkert sige er tyveri) Derimod et godt navn som "Nordic Volley Cup".
Conceptet behøver heller ikke være en liga med kun 2 hold fra hvert land. Man kunne nemlig tage udgangspunkt i pokalturneringen og lave den have en nordisk fætter. Så kunne man spille de første runder nationalt og de sidste runder med hold fra alle lande. Det ville også være en mulighed at lave geografiske puljer først, så hold fra sjælland spiller med hold fra sydsverige. Jyske hold spiller mod hold fra mellemsverige og sydnorge. Nordnorge spiller mod nordsverige osv.
Der er selvfølgelig problemet med at blive slået ud efter kun 1 kamp, når man deltager i en pokal turnering. Men det problem kan afhjælpes ved, at man i de indledende runder spiller med double elimination og mødes over en weekend feks 8 hold af gangen, hvor 2 hold går videre til næste runde. En forudsætning for dette er at lodtrækningen er lavet for hele turneringen inden den starter.
Afslutningen på turneringen kunne være at de 8 sidste hold mødes i en double elimination turnering f.eks. lige inden jul, afviklet som DM i beach. Holdet der vinder er så vært for stævnet året efter.
Det slår mig lige at 8 hold til slut passer med at man får Finland med...
Angående det økonomiske i denne pokalturnering vil det kun være de sidste runde der er dyre.
De indledende runder vil også give lavere rangerede hold for at udvikle sig idet de møder de store hold. Samtidig vil det give de gode hold mulighed for at udbygge bredden i truppen ved at lade marginalspillere får tid på banen.
SRA
Its a funny thing.
Everyone agrees that we need more money in danish volleyball.
But those who dont have the money, blame those who have money, even though they would wish that they were the ones with the money.
The real thing is about "desperation", a club with low funds who works their asses of can easily see all they work dissapear as soon as someone has money to buy players.
That makes many "good people" leave the sport, and that a pity.
In the end it will mean fewer good teams, but at a much higher level than today.
Personally its hard for me to know that i problably need to move as a coach from the club ive been representing for 14 years, if i wanna be able to compete at the level i wanna play/coach at.
As for Chuck Norris, then he actually does have some sports background also (of course)
"Chuck Norris once lined up to kick the winning field goal of a high school football game. When the football went flat, he persuaded the referees to let him kick the field goal with a 3 month old child. Chuck roundhoused kicked the baby 60 yards through the uprights and then proceeded to bang every girl in the stadium"
/William
ps.
Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried.
Post a Comment